LinkedIn CEO says galvanizing 18,000 employees to shift objectives to AI hasn’t been easy but they’ve worked to ‘create a movement around it’

On this episode of Fortune’s Leadership Next podcast, co-hosts Alan Murray and Michal Lev-Ram sit down with LinkedIn CEO Ryan Roslansky to discuss the company's metamorphosis into an AI company. The interview covers topics ranging from the reasons for the change to how people should think about jobs in the future. Roslansky also explains why the future will be more about building for agility instead of stability.

Listen to the episode or read the transcript below.

Transcript

Alan Murray: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte who, like me, are exploring the changing rules of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.

Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Alan Murray.

Michal Lev-Ram: And I’m Michal Lev-Ram.

Alan, today's guest was Ryan Roslansky and he is the CEO of LinkedIn. You can look him up on LinkedIn. LinkedIn has made a really big transition. That's how they talk about it to becoming an AI company. And we constantly talk about AI. This particular episode was really all about AI or almost all about AI.

Murray: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. LinkedIn is a subsidiary of Microsoft now, it's owned by Microsoft, but it's a huge company. It has something like $16 billion in revenue. And what he talked about was how having all the data they have about who's looking for jobs, who's looking to hire, understanding where the matches are and the misfits are, gives them a really interesting window on this very rapid transformation that's taking place in the technology-driven business world.

Lev-Ram: Yeah, and I thought some of what he shared with us about tasks and kind of switching our mind frame of thinking about jobs as titles and more as a series of tasks probably makes it easier to sort of evolve those tasks and tailor them to what's actually needed now. And one of the things that came up, not just with what they're seeing on LinkedIn, sort of across the board, what their data is showing, but for him personally as a leader, is the importance of EQ in this sort of new world.

Murray: Yeah, those tasks, the important tasks going forward. You know, it wasn't that long ago that everybody was telling every kid, it was like The Graduate, you know, saying, “Get into plastics, kid.” Instead, they were saying, learn to code. You had to learn to code. Everybody needs to go to coding school and learn how to write code. And in fact, we now know that's not the answer for the future. The coding is going to kind of take care of itself. I mean, ChatGPT can write a good piece of your code, but what he was saying was it's those soft skills and judgment and EQ and all the things that enable you to make smart decisions and to get people to rally around a topic or a direction, those are the things that are going to matter going forward.

Lev-Ram: Yeah, I mean, I guess forget STEM, teach your kids to say please and thank you and carry on a conversation in the future. Anyways, we talked about a lot more, including the Microsoft piece and sort of the unique edge that LinkedIn has being a part of Microsoft because of all of the resources that are kind of in-house there. So, without further ado, let's dive in.

[Music starts. Interview begins.]

Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. I want to start out by asking you a little bit about this transition to AI, which a lot of people are talking about now, but you've been talking about for a little bit longer than just the immediate present. So, what does it mean for LinkedIn to be an AI company and why did you decide to do this?

Ryan Roslansky: Well, thanks again for having me. Yeah, and maybe to set some context or set the table a bit on the view that may be unique that we have in all of this. You know, hopefully both you and Alan have this little blue app on your phone called LinkedIn. And it's…

Lev-Ram: Never heard of it.

Roslansky: I hope you have it. But I think what's interesting is that underneath that blue app that, you know, a lot of people have on their phones, you have a billion members now, there's a real vibrant professional graph happening. Every minute on LinkedIn, 9,000 people connect or 48 people are hired or actually start a new job because of LinkedIn. And there's just a lot of real time labor information happening. In fact, the graph updates, you know, north of 5 million times per minute. So it gives us a really good view into what's happening real time across the global labor market. And it's through that view we're able to identify trends. So, trends like, a couple of years ago, we started to have this feeling that people were moving jobs a lot and we identified this trend called the Great Reshuffle, that people were moving jobs and, for what it's worth, that has subsided. But we're starting to see that move a little bit again. Now, there may be another reshuffle coming. Or identify trends about what's happening with remote work. So, before the pandemic, roughly 2% of all the jobs on LinkedIn were remote and jumped to north of 20% not even 18 months ago. Now it's back down to 8%. So we're seeing that rise and fall. And then to your point, one of the things we really identified early on is changes in skills that are required to do specific jobs. And that's where we started to identify and notice, wow, there's a real uptick in people requiring or posting the need for AI-type skills in jobs and subsequently, professionals on LinkedIn learning those skills, adding them to their profile, like, probably two years ago was like, oh, this AI thing is going to be real. And so in order for us, you know, fundamentally, we built the largest global labor market on LinkedIn to help people find jobs. And in order to help people find jobs, ensure that we can match talent with the opportunity or the people with the jobs. And in order to do that, we need to ensure that people in the world have the skills needed to do those jobs or else we can't be successful matching them. And that's where the big focus on AI really started for us probably two years ago.

Murray: But Ryan, give us a little more on that because as you know, today, in the last year, basically every company has rebranded itself as an AI company. I mean, thank you for not renaming the company LinkedIn GPT.

So, tell us how experiencing LinkedIn is going to be different because of this pivot. Is it that you're going to be matching me with jobs? Is it that you're going to be providing me intelligence you got out of the data? Is it more around the learning part? Where do you think your users are going to see a profound difference in their interaction with LinkedIn?

Roslansky: Yeah, it's hopefully everywhere, but we are proudly part of Microsoft. We were acquired roughly seven years ago, and that's afforded us with a lot of insight into what's happening as well in AI. And it was probably almost two years ago now that [Microsoft CEO] Satya Nadella came back from, I think it was a meeting at Bill Gates’ house where they were looking through some AI stuff, and he was like, Hey, like this is happening. We started to really see some new breakthrough in technology. And we need to embrace this as Microsoft.

And for LinkedIn, that really meant navigating the paradigm shift on two fronts. One, most importantly, how do we help a billion people across the world like navigate what's potentially going to be a paradigm shift in the way the world works? And then secondly, how do we ensure that LinkedIn, our products and our company, we can embrace AI to make a more valuable product and platform for the world. So like everything we do, when it feels like there's uncertainty or there's a big change in the world, at least, you know, our playbook is to start with a set of principles. We created a set of principles for here's how we're going to do everything and navigate whatever we're doing across the board. And then from there, we ran at number one. It was like, how do we help the world understand what's going to go on? So just like I rattle off all those stats in the beginning, how do we leverage those stats about AI to at least provide some guidance or certainty around what we're seeing in the world? Like, here's the skills that are really in demand, here's the ones that are going away, here’s the industries that are hiring for AI, etc. So, we produce a quarterly report through our economic graph team. We do whatever we can to at least show all the data that we have to provide some certainty for the world. We created over 100 AI courses to help the world better to learn the skills that are needed out there. So that's kind of this like ongoing thing that we'll do to help the world understand what's changing.

Then it's about how do we change our company? See, I finally got to your question, Alan, and it's super difficult because you're running this at-scale business. You've got a plan already for the year ahead and you’ve got to go into the company and kind of say, hey, you know, time out, we're going to have a pivot and we're really going to focus on AI and gen AI and ensuring gen AI works throughout the company. And, you know, you have to galvanize 18,000 employees to really understand that that's a bet worth making and changing every one of the company's roadmap and how they think about what's going on. And that's not a real easy thing to do, especially when, you know, for our business over the past year where the majority of our company is based on other companies hiring and a lot of companies have been slowing down their hiring, it's a tough year to begin with. So that was a tough pivot, but we knew we had to do it.

We knew as part of Microsoft we had a strong competitive advantage to have access to a lot of the technology early on. So we really made that bet and we created a movement around it. We called it LinkedIn 4.0. We're going to change the way every part of the product works. We discuss it as a company every two weeks. We have a Company Connect, a company all-hands every two weeks where we get up and we talk about our progress with AI, what we're doing and building. And I'm pleased to say that, you know, a year into our journey we've had a ton of failures. But I think that's really important because with a new technology or a new paradigm shift, you need to go through those failures in order to learn what's actually working. And we now have actually a ton of things that are starting to really pick up and find product market fit and work. And it's across the board for everything that we do from how you share content on LinkedIn to how you find jobs, to how recruiters do their jobs, and we're starting to see real momentum and real wins across the board. So it's pretty exciting. But pivoting a company like that in the middle of an already tough economic situation is no easy feat.

Lev-Ram: So, I want to hear more about Microsoft and some of the specific ways that you feel being a part of this larger company who has so much of the IP and the ties to what's going on with AI and gen AI in particular, how that's benefited you. But first, you know, as a consumer of LinkedIn, I don't know that I have noticed any shift and like, sure, I see new features, but it's not like you're overtly saying like, Hey, look what we can do with AI. I mean, is it purposely that way that, you know, it's not necessarily marketed as like, look at all these cool new AI-powered tools and it's under the hood, or are you making more of a show of it?

Roslansky: The first thing that we did with AI, you know, we run what looks like a social network. It's a professional network, which means that the content that's shared on LinkedIn, we have a higher bar. It's professional in nature. It goes on your resume. And the first product that we launched was something called collaborative articles, which is where we want to help any professional on LinkedIn to answer professional questions that they have. How do I ask for a raise? How do I use a specific tool? How do I navigate a certain situation? So the first thing that we try early on to learn AI was, we actually created nearly a million pages through AI of take us for any specific work or question or topic. Have AI create a draft of what the answer to that might look like and then feed that out to the people on LinkedIn who have skills qualifying them to answer that question, have them come on top of it and to augment it and to make it better. And think of it maybe like, you know, a next generation of Wikipedia where AI is the one that kind of starts the conversation, and then human beings come on top of it to really improve upon it. And, you know, we're a year and a half into that and we learned a ton about prompt engineering and how to get the right AI questions and answers and things like that. But we've got north of 600,000 people contributing now to this large database, like human beings, every month right now. And it's really exciting to see how like AI and humans come to the forefront. And to your point, it wasn't really an AI in your face product, but we're creating a large professional knowledge base using AI.

Lev-Ram: What are some of the tangible ways that being a part of Microsoft is giving you an advantage here?

Roslansky: So, we were acquired by Microsoft seven years ago. At the time we were doing just shy of $3 billion a year in revenue. In seven years we've grown I think that our last last Microsoft's earnings, you know, you could point out that we're doing a little bit north of $16 billion a year in revenue now. We've seen tremendous growth by being inside of the Microsoft ecosystem and for the most part, it's by having been left pretty much stand alone. So, Satya had this strategy and thesis early on, which was that, Hey, LinkedIn as a standalone company inside of Microsoft will do better than LinkedIn being a standalone public company. And I mean, such is, you know, he's so forward thinking, it was like, is this really going to work? Microsoft had never really done something like this, but it's been tremendous. And quite frankly, on two fronts, it's been helpful. Number one, access to new technology. Like, the story I told when Satya comes back from Bill Gates’ house and is like, Hey, this is the thing now. It's like we're really first to market to understand it and have access to a lot of the compute through Microsoft, etc. It gives us a huge competitive advantage. I cannot overstate how important that is. Secondly, the thing that's not so obvious, I do believe that by not being a standalone public company, we've been able at LinkedIn to focus much more long term to not have to worry every quarter about meeting some analyst number, etc.. And look, Microsoft, you know, is a massive business and LinkedIn has a great huge business, $16 billion revenues. It's a decent business. But in the Microsoft world, it's still kind of small. So we're able to really forge a longer term path in what we're doing. I think it's been a genius move by Satya and really helped us to grow along the way. So it's been really exciting and I get to sit in, you know, Satya stopping every Friday and watch people like him or [Microsoft CFO] Amy Hood or [Microsoft vice chair and president] Brad Smith, like the greatest operators in technology right now and kind of use that learning to bring it back to LinkedIn.

Murray: Yeah and the the flip side of that, is it's also valuable that Microsoft didn't try to cram it into the existing infrastructure the way it might have in the past under past leaders.

[Music starts.]

I'm here with Jason Girzadas, the CEO of Deloitte, US and the sponsor of this podcast. Thanks for sponsoring it. Thanks for joining me, Jason.

Jason Girzadas: Thank you, Alan. It's a pleasure to be here.

Murray: Addressing health equity is not just the right or moral thing to do. It's become a business imperative. In fact, in the United States, health inequities cost $320 billion annually. Every organization has a role to play in making health more equitable. And as business leaders, we need to make sure we communicate how health equity drives business value. So, what role should business play in addressing health equity?

Girzadas: I think you're right to point out the moral and the business imperative around health equity. We actually believe that the health equity cost to society could rise by up to a trillion dollars by 2040. So this is an economic issue for all businesses. The role of business is to recognize that health equity impacts the workforces of every single business, and it's needing to be on the CEO agenda and board agendas for all organizations. In our country your zip code can determine your health status, and that's problematic. If you think about the drain on worker productivity, the cost to businesses in terms of the health and well-being of their workforces, making this a priority from the standpoint of looking at what actions you can take through your organization around health and benefits, as well as how it pertains specifically to the products and services and also the types of partners that organizations team with to address health equity issues broadly. There are resources to look at the Deloitte Health Equity Institute, which has pro-bono data and analytical tools to leverage that are accessible to all organizations to start on this journey of making health equity not just a societal concern but actually a business priority.

Murray: Thank you for that, Jason. A pleasure to be with you.

Girzadas: Thank you.

[Music ends.]

Murray: I want to talk about jobs. You've referred to it several times. You know, there are lots of people who are worried that AI is going to eliminate jobs, maybe their job. There are others who say, Oh, it'll eliminate some jobs, but it will create even more. And all of us are just speculating. But you have the data. So, what does your data show? Where are skills and jobs in less demand and what skills are in more demand as we move into this profound technological change?

Roslansky: Despite all the data we have, I think that there's that quote, you know, prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future. And so, you know, we don't really necessarily have a crystal ball. A lot of people ask the same question, Alan, and oftentimes a lot of CEOs or CIOs and CHROs who are thinking about the future of their company needs to look like. My best advice is ironically, something that we've been talking about for a while in terms of how we create a much more equitable and efficient labor market across LinkedIn which is, it's really important for people to change the way you think about jobs. Jobs historically been thought about as a title. But fundamentally, if you can take a different view, which is jobs as a set of tasks, your job is a set of tasks. My job is a set of tasks. Everybody's job to be done it's a set of tasks. And when you can start to really break down every job it's a set of tasks. You can then take the next step to understand where technology can help either augment or make certain tasks more efficient, or certain tasks are going to be just completely automated. Then you start to realize that, Oh, you know what? Like if your job is just a set of tasks that is going to be automated, you need to start looking for a new job.

So, one of the things that we're doing across LinkedIn is taking every role in the world and doing a score of certain jobs as tasks and understanding that, hey, there are certain jobs like you know, a lot of copywriting or translation type jobs where the majority of the task to do those jobs are tasks that can be automated. So, you know, it's important to start thinking about a new job. The majority of jobs though in the world are the types of jobs where a specific portion of those tasks will be automated, and you need to learn how to leverage those tools to help in that part of your job. But still, a lot of human skills are needed for the majority of the jobs. So that's why, it's funny, you know, a lot of the questions that I'm getting these days are coming from both CIOs and CHROs, because for the first time, I think what's going to happen is when you do look at jobs as a set of skills and tasks and you look at the future of what your company needs to look like, it becomes more overlapping with technology and people. In order to have a very successful marketing department, for example, you need to ensure that your marketing team has the right AI tools to be successful. In order to run a successful engineering team, your engineering team has to have the right co-pilots to make them more productive and successful. So there's this overlap between like what's historically been a talent or technology, seeing those things blend together much more right now.

Murray: Yeah, so give us some examples of skills that you think are going to be more valuable in the future because of what's happening now.

Lev-Ram: Like interviewing people on podcasts?

Murray: Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully. No, but that's actually that's a good point, Michal. Because remember it was just a few years ago that Businessweek did this cover story that said everybody needs to write code. And so everybody, you know, everybody goes, Oh, we all have to go to bootcamp. We all have to learn how to write code. Everybody's going to have to write code. Well, I mean, the last year has made it clear that's B.S. I mean, the code is going to write itself, you know, with some supervision, obviously. And so the skills you need to survive in this rapidly changing environment are not what we thought they were five years ago. So what are they?

Roslansky: First and foremost, it is really important to learn your way into using these tools. It's only going to help you in whatever job that you're doing to be able to leverage these tools to help you be more productive. My big bet is on people skills, learning how to build people skills, communicating, knowing what to do when your camera falls off of your computer during a podcast interview.

[Laughter.]

Murray: Which is, just so our listeners know, just happened to happen. You did a total eclipse right in the middle of the interview. He was just gone.

Roslansky: Yeah. EQ, communication, collaboration, creativity. That's a place where I would be putting a lot of time and effort if I was just entering the workforce or thinking about what the future might look like. And then I think that there's this concept which is for so long we've been taught or thought about the importance is to build for stability. And I think the future is more about building for agility instead of stability, being able to adapt, being able to, you know, take on something new. The way I did my job last year is going to be the way I'm going to do my job this year. So, I think a lot of that goes into what I would at least be thinking about right now entering the workforce, or at least I'm thinking about for myself, transitioning, you know, through a leadership job that's always changing as well.

Lev-Ram: So, what role do college degrees play in all of this? I mean, are they as, I guess the question is not only are they as important and critical as they were in the past, but are they important for different reasons? Because it's not just the skills that you accrue through a degree, maybe not just a four-year degree, but it's also EQ, right? You also are learning all these kind of intangible things. So anyways, what what's your take on that?

Roslansky: The last part is spot on especially on the EQ side. And you know, I'm not sure that outside of being with a group of people doing work or being with a group of people at a school, etc., there's been a real strong way to teach, a lot of people skills besides just kind of being in that environment. But I think it's an area of opportunity that, you know, as society we need to really figure out in terms of college degrees in general, I think degrees are important insofar as they contain the set of skills that are really important and necessary to be productive in society.

One of the biggest things that I've found trying to build, you know, LinkedIn over the last 15 years and again, if you think about the problem that we're trying to solve at LinkedIn, quite frankly, we provide value to our company when we can match a human being with a job that needs to be done in the world. That's it. So we have this massive matching problem that we're trying to do all day long. Historically, recruiters would use degrees as the way to assess or find talent because we had no better view to do it. So, for example, you see a lot of recruiters do things like, Well, I just want to see candidates that went to Princeton, someone went to Princeton, they must be smart. Or previous company, this person used to work at Google, they must be smart as well. And when you only look at the degree or the pedigree on its own as opposed to the skills underneath it, two things happen. Number one, everyone's looking at the same group of talent because all the recruiters do the same search, show people who used to work at Google and went to Princeton. It's like everyone's looking at this tiny group of people, which does not create a very equitable or efficient labor market.

And number two, it turns out that oftentimes those degrees alone aren't signal enough for what needs to be done inside of the job. So we've been pushing a lot on skills are the currency, the actual skills that need to be done. And it falls in line really well with this idea of the future about looking at jobs, the set of tasks, as opposed to just the job title itself. I think across the board we're requiring, the site is going to require ourselves to go a level deeper in terms of what are the actual skills or tasks to be done instead of just relying on the name of the degree alone. But I really think you're on to something, though, with the EQ point, and that's something we need to figure out.

Murray: Yeah, I think educational institutions have another problem, which is they don't change rapidly. And you're talking, when we say AI right now, in our minds, we're partly thinking generative AI, which only popped up like less than two years ago. And educational institutions just aren't good at moving that quickly. I know that's one of the things you're trying to address at LinkedIn. How much of a role do you think LinkedIn can play to giving people the kind of education they need to deal with the society where things are moving at such a head-spinning speed?

Roslansky: So here's where I learned that educational institutions don't move fast and then what I'm trying to do about it. Seven years ago, we were looking at some data around, I think it was Gainesville, Florida, University of Florida, this kind of area around the University of Florida. And it was fascinating. You have all of these kids, these entry level employees graduating the University of Florida with a marketing degree. Awesome. Then you have all these companies that are hiring entry-level marketers, but these two things are not connecting. And again, back to my previous point, like that's our job as a company. That's how we create value for LinkedIn. We have to connect. And you go one step below that and it's both, obvious, fascinating, and it's also scary. So what's really going on is rightfully so, these companies that are hiring entry-level marketers are requiring skills like, Hey, you have to know how to use Google Analytics or how to make Instagram viral posts or how to use the Facebook ads tool. Like, yes, if you're marketing right now, like those are the things you have to know. And these poor kids are graduating school like in debt, having learned great marketing theory, like they have for the last 30 years in a system that hasn't changed. And so that's when we actually got into the learning business for that reason, not because we're trying to disrupt anything, but we need to like teach these kids these skills and basically like in that scenario, say, Hey, we have a product called LinkedIn Learning. Here's a course on Google Analytics. Take the course like in two hours, you can get an assessment, you can, you know, say, you know what you're doing, and there's a recruiter right here that wants to hire you the second you want to do that.

So you know, what we're trying to do more than anything right now is to just provide all of this skill data to all of the colleges and universities, say, hey, here are the trends, Here's what's going on in the global labor market. Use this as a mechanism to create or to think about how to create your curriculum, because these are the things that are in demand by employees right now. And, you know, again, it's hard to change something that's been around for so long. We ourselves kind of have our learning products that can help do that as well. But the entire world needs to figure out how to adapt to more of a changing labor market right now.

Lev-Ram: In what ways is all of this that we're talking about impacting LinkedIn directly? Like are you upskilling your own employees? Have you cut jobs as a result? Like, what can you share about how it's impacting LinkedIn?

Roslansky: Well, we talked a lot about how we're transforming the entire way that our product works. So, first and foremost, we set out and said, hey, we're building LinkedIn 4.0, you know, everyone has to figure out how to use gen AI. Like, you know, use it in your job, learn yourselves like, you know, all of our engineers have to be upskilled and thinking about how to build, not our own models, but how to train, you know, specific models using some of our data on top of it. There's a whole process that it takes to go through to become, you know, obviously an AI-first company. Then globally what's happening is I think that a lot of the world is recognizing that they need LinkedIn more than ever. So we're a 20-year-old consumer Internet company, and that's that's a long time for consumer Internet companies. We just passed a billion members and seven members are joining LinkedIn right now are signing up every second, which is a like by far like a record for us. So I think what we're also seeing is a lot of people in the world trying to figure out, Hey, there's a paradigm shift happening in the global labor market. I need to make sure I'm building a network, I'm out there, I'm establishing my identity in the right way. I'm showcasing the skills that I have. I'm aware of what's happening with other jobs. I'm staying up to date on the latest knowledge that's happening across the world.

So I do think that, look, I mean, here's the way to think about it. People talk a lot about these revolutions are industrial revolutions, as you know. Oh, it always ends up in a positive way. And like a lot of productivity gains happen and new markets open up. And I think often that's true. People fail to remember that in the middle of that, there's a ton of pain and suffering that happens when you go through a transition like this. So for me, what I hope more than anything is that through this transition, what's different in the past is the world never had a LinkedIn before, a place where you could ensure you're trying to stay up to date with the latest skills or finding the latest jobs or at least understanding the trends that are happening and provide some clarity. So our goal through this is going to really be to help provide that clarity to the world in terms of what's happening and again, to create that really efficient and equitable labor market moving forward and try and lessen the amount of pain that we go through in the cycle.

Murray: Ryan, how is all of this, you know, you said a minute ago, it's really at the end of the day, it's all about the people. In some ways it's more about the people than it is about the technology. So how has all of this changed you as a leader? Who is Ryan today versus Ryan 10 years ago? What's different? What have you learned?

Roslansky: You know, a lot of the stuff that I talked about in terms of, you know, being able to learn and being able to adapt to being able to think about and build new skills is something that I've been through and gone through over the past 10 years and quite frankly, go through every day right now. And, you know, I took this job roughly four years ago and it was, you know, the sun was shining and it was pre-COVID, and we were part of Microsoft and life was good and everything was great. And quite frankly, I took this job because a lot of what needed to be done were some pretty well-known business and product things, which is the background that I had. And then literally three weeks after our previous CEO, Jeff Weiner, decided to move on is when COVID happened. And then all of a sudden my questions that I have to deal with is like, oh, like, what do you do with 38 offices around the world? You know, remote or hybrid? Oh, and not only for LinkedIn, our company, but the global workforce is like staring at this platform trying to figure out what to do. So I learned early on that it's all about adaptability, being able to not hold on to how things used to work. And more than anything, just really being able to look forward and create a future that you want to create, and I feel so blessed to be part of this platform that's able to do that.

Lev-Ram: Well, Ryan, thank you so much for being with us today and sharing all of your insights. And we're looking forward to finding out how relevant or obsolete our tasks are on the LinkedIn platform.

Roslansky: Thank you both. Appreciate it.

Murray: Leadership Next is edited by Nicole Vergalla.

Lev-Ram: Our executive producer is Chris Joslin.

Murray: Our theme is by Jason Snell.

Lev-Ram: Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media.

Murray: Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune’s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.

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