‘Better Call Saul’ Co-Creator Peter Gould Breaks Down the Surprising Series Finale and Jimmy and Kim’s Ending

Michael Schneider

SPOILER ALERT: Do not read if you haven’t watched the series finale of “Better Call Saul,” Season 6 Episode 13, “Saul Gone.”

In the end, Jimmy McGill unbroke bad. Just when it looked like Saul Goodman (Bob Odenkirk) had finessed his way into a sweet plea agreement — just seven years at the most country club-like of correctional facilities (low-security FCI Butner Low, which even has a golfing program!) — he reversed course and confessed all, in Monday night’s series finale of AMC’s “Better Call Saul.”

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It was a finale rife with references to regret, time machines and how there’s “no shame in going back and changing your path,” as Chuck McGill (played by Michael McKean, who returns in a flashback) tells his younger brother. With “Breaking Bad” stars Bryan Cranston and Betsy Brandt also making an appearance, there was plenty for fans of the entire “Breaking Bad”/”Better Call Saul” universe to sink their teeth into.

But ultimately, it came down to an ending that mirrored the very first episode of “Better Call Saul”: Jimmy and Kim, backs up against the wall (literally), sharing a smoke — with most everything left unsaid. Jimmy has been sentenced to 86 years in prison, and Kim (Rhea Seehorn) could be hit with a massive civil lawsuit for her role in Howard Hamlin’s death. And yet, in the scheme of things for “BB” and “BCS,” it was kind of a happy ending.

Variety spoke with “Better Call Saul” co-creator Peter Gould, who wrote and directed the finale, about how the show’s writers decided to end things on this note. What made Saul decide to turn back into Jimmy? What does this mean for Jimmy and Kim’s relationship?

Gould also shares the H.G. Wells “The Time Machine” Easter egg you may have missed throughout the season, as well as the logistics of heading back to the desert for more with Jimmy and Mike, and much more.

What did it take for Saul, who seemed to lack remorse after being caught, to suddenly turn back into Jimmy? Take me through the decision to have him reverse course after he hears what Kim has done (in confessing, via affidavit, her involvement in Howard’s death).

Obviously, he gets caught at the beginning of the episode and he’s hopeless for a little bit. And then he gathers himself and realizes he’s Saul Goddamn Goodman. He’s in his element finally. And he negotiates a remarkable deal. But he does that by looking Marie Schrader in the eye, and saying that he was a victim like her. To me, that’s one of the lowest moments this guy has ever had. And that is a true Saul Goodman moment. There’s no hint of Jimmy.

When he hears what Kim has done in the previous episode, that she has copped to everything that she did, her whole part in what they did — which of course, is only a small sliver of what Saul Goodman did — I think it brings him up short. And suddenly this deal that he was kind of happy about, it kind of turns to ashes in his mouth. Suddenly everything feels wrong to him at that point. And he makes a decision, no matter what the cost is, he’s gonna come clean in court. He’s going to do what she did. If she can do it, he can do it. But he would really like her to be there. He wants her to see it. And who knows, maybe he doesn’t even trust that he has the courage to do it if she’s not there. So that’s why he tells a lie in order to get her into court. And then in court, he really hangs himself. He slits his own throat by confessing to everything. But in a weird way, it’s a moment of great showmanship. He may be the devil, but he’s the devil in the spotlight. And that’s as far as he’s planning to go. But then he sees the look on her face. And then he goes a little bit further.

My favorite part is when he starts talking about things that don’t have anything to do with this case, like Chuck. And his lawyer Bill Oakley is like, ‘That’s not even a crime. Why would you even bring that up?’

An interesting thing about the show is that sometimes the worst things that people do aren’t crimes. Certainly, Chuck’s worst actions aren’t actually crimes. And maybe in that case, one of Jimmy’s many bad actions is not technically a crime.

As a result, he ends up in the prison he wanted to avoid. And by the way, thanks to “Better Call Saul” for identifying which prison we do want to go to if we ever end up in trouble.

Butner Low, Wing D. That is a real prison. And it is the only one with a golf program. Which, frankly, I think they all should have a golf program.

As Jimmy is being transported to prison, he’s quickly recognized. And although he’s trying to be Jimmy again, his fellow convicts erupt into a “Better Call Saul” chant. What’s going on there?

There were two strands of thought. The first thought was, even if he’s become Jimmy McGill again in his own mind, to the outside world, he’s always going to be Saul Goodman. Forever. Until the day he dies, to the world he’s going to be Saul Goodman. There’s no way for him to win back his average humanity, and that’s a mixed bag. Because on the one hand, he’s going to be protected a little bit from the worst the prison can offer. It seems like he manages to make his way, even in these in these horrible circumstances. But it also means to some extent he’s going to be playing a role for the rest of his life.

In his mind, he’s taken the mask of Saul Goodman off. But the world is always going to see that. He’s a little bit like an actor who gets so identified with a role that people assume that it’s the real guy. And that’s something he’s going to have to live with. And maybe that’s part of his ultimate punishment. But then when he sees Kim, she calls him “Jimmy.” And that really gets to him.

I think the other side of it was, if we had just said he’s going to this awful prison, you’re going to picture every cliche about what happens to people in prison. And we wanted to give a feel for what he’s actually going to experience and the suffering he’s in for is pretty much the suffering he deserves.

The shot of him in prison kicks off with him kneading dough in the cafeteria. For a moment, I was like, “Wait, is he back at Cinnabon?”

[Laughs] He’s using all his skills, including his Cinnabon baking skills.

One of the final scenes is Jimmy and Kim sharing a cigarette, which clearly is a throwback to the first episode. It’s kind of perfect symmetry. They’re obviously in a very different place. But what made you want to recreate that kind of dynamic between the two from the pilot?

Having the two of them against the wall, smoking, passing that cigarette back and forth, felt very much like like a way to say that they’ve reached an agreement. They see each other and they’re relating to each other. And there’s an honesty there, and even love, I think, still there. That’s all underneath the words. Helping us is the fact that we had that image from the pilot. That was actually the last scene that we shot in the series. And it was an incredibly emotional moment. And I think you can see it in the work that Bob and Rhea do in the scene.

In the world of “Breaking Bad”/”Better Call Saul,” this is kind of a happy ending. What do you think?

I’m so happy you say it’s a happy ending. I think it shows some measure of accomplishment that you’re calling it a happy ending when we’ve got a character who’s in federal prison for a good chunk of his future life. And another character who’s under threat of a giant civil lawsuit that could take away whatever little bit that she has. And yet, you’re right. I think it is a happy ending. Because they’ve regained their humanity. I think both Jimmy and Kim have earned their souls back. I don’t think you can say that he’s redeemed himself, because how do you do that when you’ve been part of murder? There’s no taking that back without a time machine. But he’s gotten a piece of his true self back and I don’t think he’s ever going to make the same mistakes again. And I don’t think she is either.

Speaking of time machines, a lot of the theme of this episode is time travel, going back and changing things if you could. What led to the focus on time travel and regret in this episode?

I’m glad you picked up on that. So much of the episode is about regret and having a willingness to face your own mistakes and be honest with yourself about them. Jimmy has two discussions about this time machine thing, one with Mike and then one with Walt. In both cases, he walks right up to the truth. He comes within an inch of actually saying what’s on his mind. And then he backs off and starts talking about something trivial or something that’s just complete fantasy. Jimmy is just scared to go there. And he doesn’t until the very end of the episode.

“The Time Machine” book, we’ve seen earlier in the season a couple of times. We actually saw it in a teaser for the season. It’s in Saul Goodman’s house when it’s being cleaned out by the authorities. It’s also in Jimmy and Kim’s apartment, on Jimmy’s bedside table. He’s currently reading it. And then at the end of this episode, Chuck has it. And all you can think is that somehow that copy of “The Time Machine” made its way from Chuck to Jimmy. And that Chuck himself was reading the book, and maybe having his own set of regrets.

We got to see some favorites one more time, including a return to the desert for Mike and Jimmy from last season. I remember last year’s shoot was grueling for the team, did you have to go back out there again?

Last season, when we shot in the desert it was way too hot. This time, we went out to the desert and it was too cold. So Bob and Jonathan [Banks] had to pretend to be hot this time. The very first two shots in the episode actually are from previous episodes. That beautiful shot of the rocks and then the shot of [Jimmy’s car, the Suzuki] Esteem. We didn’t go put the Esteem back out in the desert. We just used previous shots. But after that, it was all in the real desert. Not too terribly far from Albuquerque, and it’s a gorgeous place.

Let’s talk about guest stars. It was great to see Michael McKean back, of course, and Betsy Brandt. How difficult was it to get them back to production, and was there anyone else you had hoped might make an appearance?

If we had had a longer episode, if it had been a feature-length episode, there are a lot more characters I’d love to have seen in the episode as we mix the worlds of “Breaking Bad” and “Better Call Saul.” But we were just so lucky. Michael is very busy, and we managed to get him back to Albuquerque just before he was on his way to the U.K. to shoot another project. And Betsy Brandt is also in hot demand. So I was so grateful that she was willing to come to Albuquerque. She has a couple of scenes, so she was there for quite a while. Working with her reminded me of what a brilliant actress she is, and every time she did her scenes, she would bring something a little different. And Michael has such a brilliant mind and is such a brilliant actor.

By the way, all credit to [production designer] Denise Pizzini to rebuild Chuck’s house. We destroyed it in Season 4, if you remember, so we had to rebuild a big chunk of it on stage. And Denise did a wonderful job, aided by her art directors and also by Steve Brown, our construction coordinator. It was a real undertaking. But having Michael back in that set with a lantern really brought the show, for me, way back to the beginning. It just reminded me of the very first scene that Michael and Bob had together, which was also a scene that I wrote for the pilot. And watching Vince direct that and watching how Michael plays that role, I think changed the course of the show tremendously.

In the end, Kim didn’t die. That deep concern among fans must have amused you.

She could have died. Nothing’s off the table when you start a season. We started the show and all anyone could ask us about was when Bryan and Aaron were going to come back. And the wonderful thing was to have the transition to instead of asking, “When are we going to see Bryan and Aaron?” it was “What’s going to happen to Kim? Please don’t kill Kim.” That just meant the world to me. It meant that the show succeeded on its own terms.

So it feels like this is it. I asked Vince [Gilligan] last week, and it sure feels like the conclusion of this saga.

It does. We did 63 episodes of this show, 62 of the other one. Two hours of “El Camino,” which I wasn’t part of, although I did read it. It’s been a tremendous journey. 15 years. I’m going to look back on this as one of the greatest moments of my life. It’s certainly the greatest moment of my professional life. I already miss everyone on the show.

[Photo: EP Peter Gould, Carol Burnett as Marion, EP Vince Gilligan, Rhea Seehorn as Kim Wexler, Bob Odenkirk as Saul Goodman.]

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